Election latest: Sunak and Starmer to take part in Sky News leaders' special next week (2024)

Our final guest on tonight's edition of Politics Hub With Sophy Ridgeis Sky News commentator Adam Boulton - a veteran of general election debates.

In fact, he moderated a 2010 election debate between David Cameron, Gordon Brown and Nick Clegg, and he tellsSophy Ridge: "It was a big moment, and last night's debate wasn't a big moment."

The three debates that year were "much more influential than what's going to come out of this debate, which is only going to be one thing - arguing over a number".

He says the 2010 format - a 90-minute runtime with eight questions - worked better than last night's.

"It was actually a serious debate," he argues, which result in the viewers being left "better informed".

"I don't think anyone was particularly better informed by what went on last night," he adds.

'Liar label will resonate'

On the debate itself, notably Sir Keir Starmer's failure to challenge Rishi Sunak on the dubious claim about Labour's tax plans, Adam says the fact the party was able to produce a letter from the Treasury written before the debate "has given Keir Starmer the licence to use the 'liar' word".

And that's something that "resonates with voters".

That concludes tonight's edition of Politics Hub With Sophy Ridge - scroll down to read all the key moments and highlights.

Sophy Ridge - a self-described "terrible cook" - takes the opportunity to ask Michelin-starred chef Tom Kerridge for an easy recipe to show off to her friends and family with.

He has a "really simple" recipe for Sophy with skipping a beat: a baked omelette.

"Cheese, potatoes. Gently, gently poached potatoes and slice them very thinly.

"Mix it with the eggs first, so you get this kind of creamy egg mix.

"Put it into a non-stick and bake it in the oven and grated cheese on the top.

"And if it can be quite cheesy, you're on to a winner."

More than 120 business leaders have written an open letter giving their backing to Labour in the general election - including Michelin-starred chef Tom Kerridge, who is our next guest on Politics Hub With Sophy Ridge.

Asked why he signed the letter, he says he has been a Labour supporter all of his life.

But more recently, he notes people's needs aren't being met and the country "just doesn't seem to be working at all anywhere".

He says there has been "years of underinvestment" in everything from education to public transport and housing.

'I had high hopes for Sunak'

Asked what would make the biggest difference to businesses, he says there are "so many", especially in hospitality, that have been "at the brunt" of "catastrophic" events like COVID.

Mr Kerridge says he had "high hopes" for Rishi Sunak as PM after the furlough scheme, so his comments are "not all anti this government".

But he says hospitality industry figures were speaking to the government after the pandemic about what was needed in the long term, but "it kind of fell on deaf ears".

In terms of a single policy change that would make the biggest difference, he says "a reduction in VAT would be huge", saying it would allow the industry to grow amid rising energy prices.

By Tomos Evans, Wales reporter

Welsh First Minister Vaughan Gething has lost a vote of no confidence - but dismissed the motion as a "gimmick" and vowed to carry on.

He lost the vote with 29 voting against and 27 for. The motion of no confidence was put forward by the Conservatives, the largest opposition group in the Senedd (Welsh parliament).

Mr Gething has only been first minister since March, but in that time he hasfaced questions over a controversial £200k donation to his leadership campaign from a man convicted of environmental offences.

He said the donations had been made in line with party protocols and has refused calls to return the money.

Despite losing, Mr Gething does not have to step down - the vote is not binding, but it does put further pressure on the embattled leader.

Read the full details here:

We've just been speaking to this evening's panel about last night's debate.

Jim Murphy, former leader of Scottish Labour, says the debates are "tough".

But he points out that, even though the Tory party's tax claims are highly disputed, we have discussed them at length on Politics Hub With Sophy Ridgethis evening, so "on one level, they've got what they wanted".

"Whether this works for the Conservatives," he says, depends on who voters find "more believable" between Rishi Sunak and Keir Starmer.

If Sir Keir can "make it stick" with voters that the PM "lies", it'll be an argument he's won.

ButNick Ferrari, broadcaster and journalist, says: "Job done for the Conservatives."

He refers back to the Brexit referendum and the £350m for the NHS pledge emblazoned on a battle bus, which - despite "the consternation and controversy" - managed to stick.

He says people will "take on board" the conversation about tax, "rightly or wrongly".

Nick also argues Sir Keir should have tackled the statement from the PM head-on during the debate.

Rishi Sunak's claim in last night's debate that Labour will raise everyone's taxes by £2,000 comes from a "dossier" published by the Tories last month, which purported to calculate their tax and spending plans.

The headline "finding" was that over the course of the next four years, Labour had roughly £59bn of spending plans but only £20bn of revenue-raising plans.

That leaves a £39bn hole. Divide that by the number of households in the country (18.4m) and you get a figure of just over £2,000.

Now, there are all sorts of objections to the way the Conservatives have carried out this exercise.

For one thing, they deployed a weapon Labour don't have: because they're the party of government, they were able to ask Treasury civil servants to cost some Labour policies.

Today there has been a backlash - including from the Treasury's permanent secretary himself - about the way the Tories have portrayed these sums.

The £2,000 figure isn't really a Treasury calculation or an "independent" one, as Mr Sunak called it last night. It's a Conservative figure - but it was put together in part with figures commissioned from civil servants.

Labour also says many of the policies in that Tory dossier won't cost half as much as the Conservatives claim.

Regardless, while £2,000 sounds like a big number, it's actually a cumulative total from four years. A far more representative figure to take from the dossier is £500 - the annual figure.

And while that's not to be sniffed at (if you believe it - which you probably shouldn't) it's far, far smaller than the tax rises we've all experienced under this Conservative government since 2019.

They amount, all told, to an average of around £3,000 a year per household or, if we grit our teeth and tot it up as the Tories did in their dossier, over £13,000 over the course of the parliament.

Which rather dwarfs that £2,000 figure.

The latest Sky News / YouGov poll has put Reform UK within two points of the Conservative Party, and so we asked Treasury minister Bim Afolami how worried he is about the insurgent right-wing party.

He replies: "I'm not worried about Reform because they don't have a plan for reforming anything."

'At least UKIP had policy'

"It's easy to shout from the sidelines if you're Nigel Farage," he adds.

"At least in the days of UKIP, they actually had a policy."

He says he is "confident" that "anybody who's even considering voting Reform when it comes to the general election, once they actually have a look at it, they are not going to vote for a party that has no plan, no future, and absolutely no vision for the future of this country".

Next, we ask Treasury minister Bim Afolami about the tax row that has been raging today, and in particular, those who have challenged the Tories' claim that Labour would raise taxes by £2,000 per household.

He insists the claim is not a "lie", saying: "Of the 27 costings that were included, 21 of them were done by independent civil servants."

The £2,000 figure was "not produced by civil servants" he admits.

Sophy Ridgeputs to Mr Afolami that taxes have gone up £13,000 per household since 2019, so £2,000 seems a bargain in comparison.

He replies: "I don't recognise that number, frankly, because that, I've never seen that calculation."

Disposable income, he claims, is "over £1,000 higher" in real terms since 2010.

'I'm not saying the choices are easy'

Finally on this topic, Sophy puts to the minister that no one is being straight about the constraints on public spending we are likely to see after the election.

He replies that he does not think it is a "fair" assessment, saying the Tories have worked to bring interest rates down by reducing inflation.

He also says the Tory party's plans show a 1% increase above inflation in public spending without needing to tax more - a plan Labour has not matched.

"I'm not saying the choices are easy, and I'm not saying that there can't be things happening in the next parliament that you can't anticipate now."

But he says Sir Keir Starmer must be "honest about what his plans are".

Our first guest on tonight's edition of Politics Hub With Sophy Ridgeis Treasury minister Bim Afolami, and we started by asking if he is looking forward to watching Rishi Sunak and Sir Keir Starmer taking part in next week's Sky News leaders' event.

He replies: "Well, frankly, after the prime minister's performance last night against the poor performance of Keir Starmer, I'm very much looking forward to it."

He adds that it'll be "a good spectacle and a good event".

'Wrong' to dismiss TV debates

Asked how important it is for leaders to put themselves forward for interviews and scrutiny, Mr Afolami replies that there are "a lot of undecided people" in this election.

"Obviously, the manifestos are still to come, and that's part of it, but it's important that both leaders get to interrogate each other's plans as well."

He goes on to say it is "wrong" that some dismiss the debates as "too shouty" or say they don't matter.

"There are lots of people who still do not know how they're going to vote. And they are looking very carefully at these debates," he says.

There are two reasons I don't really want to discuss the Conservative claim that a Labour government would cost you £2,000 in extra taxes.

It's obviously been disputed.

Not just because it's cumulative rather than annual – but because it's based on an awful lot of assumptions, with some conclusions even being disowned by the authors who did the research.​

But the first reason I really don't want to talk about it is because the Conservatives want us to – even if we're discussing the fact the number is being disputed, we're still talking about Labour putting up tax.

And the second reason is even more important: the parties are both arguing about whether each other's sums add up.

Well, they don't, do they?

Both of them are promising they won't raise income tax, national insurance, or VAT – three fifths of the total tax revenue.

Nobody wants to borrow other than to invest. Health, schools, and defence are all ring-fenced from spending cuts in some form.

I genuinely don't understand how this all adds up. Not even close.

Public spending projections after the next election have been described as a "fantasy" by economists – the tax burden is set to hit a historic high, and we're spending more on debt interest payments than education.

Forget about the quibbling over a few numbers here and there.

Because it doesn't seem to me like any party is being honest about just how difficult it will be after the election, and the kind of choices that the next government will have to make – no matter who it turns out to be.